Monday, 7 September 2009

This pain is necessary...

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I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the WORLD rejoices. You will grieve, but your GRIEF will be turned to JOY. A woman giving birth to a child has PAIN because her TIME has COME; but when her baby is born she FORGETS the anguish because of her JOY that a child is born into the world. John 17:20-21 NIV

I am in pain and it hurts. I believe I know what I can do to stop it (at least on a temporary basis) but I sense God telling me to stay put. Why? God can't you see me, can't you feel this? Are you sure?

Yes, I am for this pain is necessary to birth your destiny. Just like a woman has no choice for when that baby is ready, there is a necessary pain but that pain turns to joy when she puts all her strength in pushing her baby out. Your pain is necessary for it speaks of the transformation taking place in your life, the butterfly goes through pain as it forces itself out of the pupa but the pain is necessary to get to the next stage. This pain is necessary for you must go out and testify of your experiences that you may comfort those that walk that path without the benefit of knowing Me as you do, they will only relate to someone who understands their pain.

This pain is necessary for like Jacob with his limp it causes you to lean on me even more, to take up the mantle of humility. Look at Jesus, I watched as they put Him through the most excruciating pain, I could have stopped it, but then we wouldn't be having this conversation would we?


Selah

17 comments:

DiAmOnD hawk said...

this passage has somehow brought peace to me in certain areas...

Remi, United Kingdom said...

SELAH......

Reverence said...

Awesome verse.
P.S I got your text message. I am really glad.

Jaycee said...

WOW. Wow. May you have the GRACE to be still.

simeone said...

selah....hmmmmm
His grace is definetly sufficient ..

Enoch said...

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no God. At least not as you think it. The evidence is all around you.

Lead a more productive life. Stop wasting time praying to nothing.

Truth said...

our pain actually pave way for things to be birthed. Enoch unfortunately very blind to his pain does not undestand nor know God. That is his pain, he will birth God's will someday, that is my prayer for him

Enoch said...

@truth, ever consider that perhaprs you are the one in pain? Living a lie?

The difference between us is that I come to the table with an open mind willing to relinquish my beliefs if false. But you come with a closed mind. Convinced beyond reasonable doubt and unwilling to test the validity of your conviction.

I am x-believer. Even used to prophesy. But now I know the truth.

John 8:32

Kafo said...

hmmmm
so true

thanks for this

Believer said...

@Enoch: I've actually been expecting your comment, an interesting comment, thanks for your honesty. I don't agree and will never agree with you, I subscribe to the belief that you can't know God, experience Him and then claim He doesn't exist. Both of us can only present our cases, we can't change or make the other person believe what we subscibe to but I know there is a God,by His grace I'll lead a more productive life in Him by praying to Him.
You now know the truth..I pray you truly do know it. The truth of the matter is that if I died today and found out there was no God, heaven or eternal life, it wouldn't really matter that much because it's been worth believing Him whilst I lived. But then what about the opposite, what if you found out He truly exists which I believe He does, what would the implications of not believing in Him be? I serve a God who I don't have to fight for, He's good at doing it for Himself. My two cents and a bit more. Do take care, though I sense you have a lot more to say..

Enoch said...

@Beliver
Apologies for the long comment.

Firstly, I applaud you for at least having the courage to entertain this conversation. Most believers, run away and label me the devil once I question their beliefs.

Secondly, you are wrong to say "we can't change or make the other person believe what we subscribe to". I am flexible like that. History has shown me that no one has a monopoly on truth. For that reason, I recognize that what I might hold as absolute irrefutable truth today might turn out to be false tomorrow due to new knowledge, more refined thinking, an experience or perhaps something I can not currently fathom. And I know this is true regardless of what is written in any book. That's my definition of keeping an open mind. So in that light despite my certainty about my current belief, if I come to realise that what I considered true is indeed false, I would relinquish my belief and embrace the truth because I think John 8:32 is very powerful.

The critical question is, why do you subscribe to a belief that is close minded? That is the worst insult you can give to John 8:32. If you really did believe it, you should always be willing to welcome the truth no matter what it is. Say, for e.g, your christian beliefs turn out to be true and my beliefs are wrong but I choose to keep a closed mind then I am disrespecting John 8:32 &would never be saved. But you have to accept as truth that it goes both ways.

I like your analogy about dying &realising that God exists which makes an atheist like me screwed in the afterlife.

Question: What if he turned out to be the God of Islam? Then we are both screwed! What if he turned out to be a God in a category alien to all religions on earth? Then we might be equally fated. What if he turned out to be a she? What if she turned out to be a monkey god wearing Hollandis who's only purpose is to punish all christian believers and place atheists by her right hand? Then you are screwed!

My larger point is that there is an endless list of possibilities including the non-existence of an afterlife(Which I lean towards). Why should you choose any one of those possibilities with certainty &ignore the mathematical implications that the odds are not biased towards anyone of them?

As per you saying "it's been worth believing Him whilst I lived". My response is that nothing is superior to the truth. Absolutely nothing! I would think that any reasonable and sensible human regardless of belief should be upset to realize that he/she believed a lie through out life even if it lead to a more beneficial life because it means that you are no different from Peter Anuohia below.

Peter Anuohia did not believe that anything like gravity exists. When his friends tried to show him evidence of gravity he closes his eyes and says proudly "You can never change my mind because I know the absolute infallible truth". So, he always walked through the forbidden forest which had trees with fruits the size of small buildings such that if they fell they'll crush him completely. Well it turned out that Peter Anuoha walked the forbidden forest weekly for the rest of his life without ever being that unlucky. In fact he ended up being a successful guy that lived a very long and productive life. After his death from natural causes, in the 'afterlife' he learns the truth and said to himself anyways "it's been worth believing that gravity did not exist whilst I lived".

My point being that because you are probabilistically fortunate to live a life that despite being guided by lies ends favourably should not give you cause to praise your irresponsibility. After all, the next guy who subscribes to those lies might not be as lucky.


Respect John 8:32. Keep an open mind.

Believer said...

@Enoch: All your comments are strongly emphatic with regards to what you believe and if you are, in your own words 'flexible' my prayer is that you find the truth you desperately seek.

This debate can go on for years and to what profit? It didn't start today and will definitely not end here. I regard the Bible as my truth and it tells me not to spend time in unprofitable arguments, I am commanded to always give an explanation regarding what I believe when asked which I have done. I WILL NEVER STOP BELIEVING IN GOD, My belief is rooted in faith. I do not seek any truth outside of the word of God, close-minded maybe but then I have found my TRUTH.

To end this, I've copied a passage from the Bible which I'm sure you can find quite easily since you seem to know the Bible quite well. I'm quite sure you have more to say, and you have a right to your opinion but accept that nothing you say can make me 'open my eyes'.

....
Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

" 'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen.

Truth said...

God bless you believer for your response and to buttress your believe and stand, please we do not dwell only on one scripture. 1jn2v18-23,chapter 5v1-5,jude v4-1 The truth we we know will surely set us free. If Jesus said He is the Way the Trutht and the Life, jn14v6, what other truth can set us free from Him who is the Truth we all seek and look for. I contend with my faith, God wii continue to use you through your blog to set people in pain free.

Enoch said...

If it takes a lifetime of debate to find the truth then I say it is in good stead.

You mount a very strong defense for keeping a closed mind. In other words, you prove unequivocally that you have no regard for John 8:32.

How can you not question the circular logic of a book whose only legitimacy you cling to is the case it makes for itself as infallible?

Question: If I rewrite the bible, swapping Lucifer for God and then schooled my kid in its teachings. Would she be any different from you for aggressively refusing to see its folly because the book tells her so?

And by the way, you do know that subjective spiritual experiences have been localised and found to emanate from the temporal lobe in the brain. Does it not faze you that ALL your subjective spiritual experiences can be induced and reproduced accurately in a lab?

Let me leave you with another parable before I go. Its ironic that it talks about theft because I stole it from a Nigerian movie.

A poor taxi driver had a very ill son and he could not afford the medical bills to save him. He tried repeatedly to get the money but was unsuccessful. As time passed his son deteriorated to the point of hanging to life by a thread. Then Someone forgot a huge sum of money in his taxi cab, enough to save his son. Being a strong man of God, rather than entertain his wife's pleas to use the money to save his son, he went looking feverishly for the owner of the cash and returned it. His son died a couple of days afterwards.

Just for the record, in case you are wondering. If I were in his shoes, I will not hesitate to choose the life of my son over some abstract moral standard and damn the consequences be it life in prison or a firing squad. If I were a father, I would love my son that much.

I bring this up because its a more concrete allegory to accompany your statement that if you died you'll say "it's been worth believing Him whilst I lived" even if God did not exist.

Lastly, I hope earnestly that life does not present you with that difficult choice. And if it does, for your offspring's sake, don't let him loose his life because of an unoriginal(the bilble is a largely plagiarized version of pre-existing books) man-made book of dogmas written ages ago to exploit the result of millions of years of evolutionary biology in your brain. You owe your kid that much.

You are falling for a mind trap designed for the unenlightened of 2000 years ago.


Embrace truth.

Tisha said...

God will bring you through
trust him.

Anonymous said...

Enoch,

I have read all the comments you have made and will like to make a few points:

You sound like someone who is knowledgeable in the area of philosophy, law and anthropology.

However, I have been born again for over 6years now and I will tell you that if you were truly born again prior to your becoming an atheist, you would not have become one now because just tasting the feeling/presence of the Lord in your life would have made too much of a difference.

You may not be living in pain as you say however, your strong statements and ideologies show that you may have experienced some sort of dissappointment to which you lost your faith in God.

Going on to the debate on John 8v32The truth will indeed set us free...That is what the bible says and that is what we believers and hopefully you after much conviction and by the spirit of God will believe also...

What is the truth..and what do you see as truth?

A lot of us Human beings define truth in so many ways which suit us...so as not to be painted wrong in the eys of our fellow humans.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the epitome of truth...that is my truth and I will ask you again please...what do you consider as truth...

What I see from your comments is that you have lost all faith...for reasons best known to you...referring to your statement on living life on a table of probabilities...With your little excerpt about Peter Onuoha...

I do not know who he is or where he came from...he made a choice which he lived by...good but was this concerning his spiritual mind or was this choice made on the basis that He wanted to prove everyone wrong by just doing the opposite...

My point is with God you do not live life on a balance of probabilities...you do not apply the laws of this world with the laws of our God...

With your reply...I believe you have decided to use JOhn8v32 in your own way...fair enough as zoe said you have stated your case and we too are stating our case and even with analogy to a court of law when the defence and prosecution have both stated their cases it is left for the judge to give his Judgement...

I am glad you were able to air your views...I was a bit shocked at first that in this year of our Lord a person can be so blatantly open to say there is no God...

Well...you said you once used to prophesy where did you recieve your prophesy from and what made you think all of a sudden that they were just ramblings presuming that is what you thought after your new revelation that there is no God....

Also if your name is truly Enoch where did you happen to get your name from...

Just to let you know Enoch was so Holy God could not even give him the chance to die...so please where did you get enoch from..

I want you to also read 2nd Corinthians 5v 17-19 with an open mind:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ He is a new creation; old things have gone the new has come

All this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

That God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And He has committe to us the message of reconciliation.

I have written in accordance to what I believe and based on what you have expressed as your belief...

There is still hope for reconciliation for you with Christ...

Using your very own words: KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN.

Thank you and I will be praying for you...

Tisha said...

my email addy is tishasmith010@gmail.com
get in touch